Editor’s Note: Sarah finding and reading a Dorothee Soelle book she hadn’t gotten to yet and my first viewing of Downfall recently coincided with an invitation to speak on unexamined agreements at work in my learning community.
Beautifully worded, David, and I also enjoyed Brett’s comments because language can often be confusing and/or misunderstood even when we do our best to convey our beliefs and “truths.”
If I can slip in between your opening welcome of feedback and your closing admonition to not speak, I might poke your concept of spiritual abuse a bit. (As always, I think your prose is confusing and proud. It's hard to put into clear words, but I remember you telling me once that Sarah wrote, "be kind to your reader" on a manuscript you were working on, and that gets at it pretty well. Now, that was back in the days of The Sacredness of Questioning Everything (in which you did well heeding that advice), and your style has shifted since, but it remains opaque. Perhaps I could say that in trying to be inclusive, it becomes exclusive. But, again, that's pretty vague feedback for one writer to give another. Maybe I wonder if you know your audience...or if your audience is an endless duplication of you. Anyway, I'm off-track, and my attempt at description has become confusing and proud.)
However, as someone who has been the victim of spiritual abuse at the hands of the leader of the ministry I worked for, I feel like your definition of it (as far as I understand what you're trying to say) might be applying the term to something adjacent and less weaponized. How to express it? I feel (perhaps due to a basic misunderstanding of your language) a bit minimized by your description of something that has created massive wounding in my life. It's similar to my grief at our culture's overuse of the term "gaslighting" to refer to situations far below the actual tragic reality of such an act. (Ironically, perhaps the most proper term for this is "abusing" -- misusing, misappropriating, misrepresenting -- the word abuse.) Such broad, vague, and individualist definitions of abuse have consequences similar to WebMD -- they lead to self-diagnoses that proliferate and drown out the stories of those who have been officially diagnosed.
Sadly, I am one of those. I have experienced emotional and verbal abuse my entire life (before and after my experience of spiritual abuse), and I can attest to its extremity and weaponization. To belabor the point in the name of emphasis, it is similar to people with temporary situational extreme sadness identifying their experience of "depression" with one who knows clinical depression to be something beyond the parlance of emotion.
At this point, perhaps you want to point out that you "don’t wish to insist [your definitions] need to be someone else’s too." Words have meaning. No one has the freedom to decide that they will define a word contrary to its actual definition. Which is a nice way of saying, own your linguistic choices and stand up for their meaning, because they do have inherent meaning. (eg. When I lived for a while in Taiwan, I experienced a sharp reality check when I was suddenly surrounded by actual idols instead of metaphorical ones. Until you have seen people sincerely worship graven images, you can't understand the true demonic power of idolatry.)
At this point, it's probably best that I recap and sign off.
1. I admit that I do not fully understand the sentences that make up your definition of spiritual abuse.
2. However, that definition seems to minimize the actual definition/experience of that abuse (as I have known it).
3. When we read that "the tongue is a fire," remember that it is also true of a keyboard.
4. I worry that your fire may be the coopting of universally reviled concepts/words to lend a greater urgency and outrage to your own subject matter.
5. The lack of epistemological humility is a far cry from the act of spirit arson.
Brett, spiritual and emotional abuse ducks. Especially from those who are suppose to love us. As one who also spent a lifetime on the receiving end, I am so sorry.
I'm mostly a visual artist and I endeavor to allow room for not just interpretation but for individual stories, memories, possibilities to find a safe space to unfold in my art. Yes, it is asking much, but it is my hope.
The sacredness of questioning EVERYTHING changed my life fir the better. It set me free to see the abuses and see the damage done to me and mine. It gave me the courage to begin the journey back to myself.
Now, I'm still on that journey. There has been too much backtracking, but 2 steps forward and one step back is still forward.
I didn't know david or anything about him when I bought the book. The title spoke to me. SCREAMED at me, a women who has spent her life in trouble for asking questions.
I got my first job after asking the preacher man, "Where was that in the Bible? I don't remember reading that." Next week I was offered a paid job in the church nursery during the sermon!!!
I am fascinated that you found the book harsh. It was cool water for me. It was healing.
It is interesting how different brains, and hearts, process the same words.
Once in a drive through my sister asked for NO pickles.
The worker said, "We don't usually do that."
My sister heard the worker say, " we do NOT do that"
I heard her say, "We don't USUALLY do that, but okay."
Writing, speaking, hearing, being human is hard.
If you need me to punch somebody, I probably shouldn't, but I'll give them a side eye and tell them they are doggie doo.
Oh gosh, no, I love that book. Sorry for the confusion. I mentioned it only as an example of the timeframe when I spoke with David and an example of what his writing can be. In other books, I have found his prose style impenetrable. (And writing style is the top thing I notice in a book, because I’m a writer and grammarian. If I can’t flow with the prose, I can’t access the ideas.) Sorry that I somehow conveyed something so unintentional and opposite to my opinion. My main point was that I think this working definition of spiritual abuse doesn’t cut it. It explains what I would call a lack of epistemological humility (people who have no space in their worldview for different ways of knowing). I simply want to register my feeling that “spiritual abuse” is something much worse, and I’m worried that applying the label too broadly cuts off the stories (like mine) of actual spiritual abuse…what I called spirit arson.
I'll hop on to say that I am sure my working definition of spiritual abuse doesn’t cut it. I want more and better ones and am content to see mine added to the pile. My hope is that I will grow in epistemological humility and have more and more space for different ways of knowing with each passing day. Thank you both for setting words down here, and my goodness, Gwen, your words on the appearance of SOQE in your life have me way energized today. Color me grateful.
David, this question makes me very happy. Thank you for asking it. It is so hard trying to participate in conversation with Christians. Alarms go off in my head and I know what words have set off the alarms, but not always why those words made my skin crawl.
I think your description of Christian supremacy could be part of the trigger.
It isn't us vs them. It is created in the image of God.
Us vs them is so much easier, so much simpler.
At 63, I'm finding easy answers are akin to cheap flip flops. Might get you across a hot patch of cement but are no good for a journey.
The connection you make between love and curiosity is encouraging and convicting. I hope I can be less worried about “policing my edges” and more attentive and “genuinely interested in the welfare of others,” to borrow a phrase from the scriptures. I appreciate your witness as always. Also, “Christ plays in 8 billion places” is an awesome update to that phrase :)
Beautifully worded, David, and I also enjoyed Brett’s comments because language can often be confusing and/or misunderstood even when we do our best to convey our beliefs and “truths.”
Thank you, Barbara! I enjoyed Brett's comments too. I didn't sense a question in them, but I am nevertheless grateful. Still processing.
No question.
If I can slip in between your opening welcome of feedback and your closing admonition to not speak, I might poke your concept of spiritual abuse a bit. (As always, I think your prose is confusing and proud. It's hard to put into clear words, but I remember you telling me once that Sarah wrote, "be kind to your reader" on a manuscript you were working on, and that gets at it pretty well. Now, that was back in the days of The Sacredness of Questioning Everything (in which you did well heeding that advice), and your style has shifted since, but it remains opaque. Perhaps I could say that in trying to be inclusive, it becomes exclusive. But, again, that's pretty vague feedback for one writer to give another. Maybe I wonder if you know your audience...or if your audience is an endless duplication of you. Anyway, I'm off-track, and my attempt at description has become confusing and proud.)
However, as someone who has been the victim of spiritual abuse at the hands of the leader of the ministry I worked for, I feel like your definition of it (as far as I understand what you're trying to say) might be applying the term to something adjacent and less weaponized. How to express it? I feel (perhaps due to a basic misunderstanding of your language) a bit minimized by your description of something that has created massive wounding in my life. It's similar to my grief at our culture's overuse of the term "gaslighting" to refer to situations far below the actual tragic reality of such an act. (Ironically, perhaps the most proper term for this is "abusing" -- misusing, misappropriating, misrepresenting -- the word abuse.) Such broad, vague, and individualist definitions of abuse have consequences similar to WebMD -- they lead to self-diagnoses that proliferate and drown out the stories of those who have been officially diagnosed.
Sadly, I am one of those. I have experienced emotional and verbal abuse my entire life (before and after my experience of spiritual abuse), and I can attest to its extremity and weaponization. To belabor the point in the name of emphasis, it is similar to people with temporary situational extreme sadness identifying their experience of "depression" with one who knows clinical depression to be something beyond the parlance of emotion.
At this point, perhaps you want to point out that you "don’t wish to insist [your definitions] need to be someone else’s too." Words have meaning. No one has the freedom to decide that they will define a word contrary to its actual definition. Which is a nice way of saying, own your linguistic choices and stand up for their meaning, because they do have inherent meaning. (eg. When I lived for a while in Taiwan, I experienced a sharp reality check when I was suddenly surrounded by actual idols instead of metaphorical ones. Until you have seen people sincerely worship graven images, you can't understand the true demonic power of idolatry.)
At this point, it's probably best that I recap and sign off.
1. I admit that I do not fully understand the sentences that make up your definition of spiritual abuse.
2. However, that definition seems to minimize the actual definition/experience of that abuse (as I have known it).
3. When we read that "the tongue is a fire," remember that it is also true of a keyboard.
4. I worry that your fire may be the coopting of universally reviled concepts/words to lend a greater urgency and outrage to your own subject matter.
5. The lack of epistemological humility is a far cry from the act of spirit arson.
Brett, thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Brett, spiritual and emotional abuse ducks. Especially from those who are suppose to love us. As one who also spent a lifetime on the receiving end, I am so sorry.
I'm mostly a visual artist and I endeavor to allow room for not just interpretation but for individual stories, memories, possibilities to find a safe space to unfold in my art. Yes, it is asking much, but it is my hope.
The sacredness of questioning EVERYTHING changed my life fir the better. It set me free to see the abuses and see the damage done to me and mine. It gave me the courage to begin the journey back to myself.
Now, I'm still on that journey. There has been too much backtracking, but 2 steps forward and one step back is still forward.
I didn't know david or anything about him when I bought the book. The title spoke to me. SCREAMED at me, a women who has spent her life in trouble for asking questions.
I got my first job after asking the preacher man, "Where was that in the Bible? I don't remember reading that." Next week I was offered a paid job in the church nursery during the sermon!!!
I am fascinated that you found the book harsh. It was cool water for me. It was healing.
It is interesting how different brains, and hearts, process the same words.
Once in a drive through my sister asked for NO pickles.
The worker said, "We don't usually do that."
My sister heard the worker say, " we do NOT do that"
I heard her say, "We don't USUALLY do that, but okay."
Writing, speaking, hearing, being human is hard.
If you need me to punch somebody, I probably shouldn't, but I'll give them a side eye and tell them they are doggie doo.
Oh gosh, no, I love that book. Sorry for the confusion. I mentioned it only as an example of the timeframe when I spoke with David and an example of what his writing can be. In other books, I have found his prose style impenetrable. (And writing style is the top thing I notice in a book, because I’m a writer and grammarian. If I can’t flow with the prose, I can’t access the ideas.) Sorry that I somehow conveyed something so unintentional and opposite to my opinion. My main point was that I think this working definition of spiritual abuse doesn’t cut it. It explains what I would call a lack of epistemological humility (people who have no space in their worldview for different ways of knowing). I simply want to register my feeling that “spiritual abuse” is something much worse, and I’m worried that applying the label too broadly cuts off the stories (like mine) of actual spiritual abuse…what I called spirit arson.
I've been on the receiving end of a couple flame throwers. Grrrrrrrr
I gotcha. Spiritual abuse comes in so many forms. It is a root cause (a not the) of the exodus from the church.
I can't imagine being part of a church with male leadership ever again.
I'm glad the abused are sharing stories.
I'm afraid to hit send because- grammar and spelling! Preemptive apologies.
I'll hop on to say that I am sure my working definition of spiritual abuse doesn’t cut it. I want more and better ones and am content to see mine added to the pile. My hope is that I will grow in epistemological humility and have more and more space for different ways of knowing with each passing day. Thank you both for setting words down here, and my goodness, Gwen, your words on the appearance of SOQE in your life have me way energized today. Color me grateful.
David, this question makes me very happy. Thank you for asking it. It is so hard trying to participate in conversation with Christians. Alarms go off in my head and I know what words have set off the alarms, but not always why those words made my skin crawl.
I think your description of Christian supremacy could be part of the trigger.
It isn't us vs them. It is created in the image of God.
Us vs them is so much easier, so much simpler.
At 63, I'm finding easy answers are akin to cheap flip flops. Might get you across a hot patch of cement but are no good for a journey.
The connection you make between love and curiosity is encouraging and convicting. I hope I can be less worried about “policing my edges” and more attentive and “genuinely interested in the welfare of others,” to borrow a phrase from the scriptures. I appreciate your witness as always. Also, “Christ plays in 8 billion places” is an awesome update to that phrase :)